Everything ... is ... so terrible!

[BenMcLean]

To anyone who doesn't know what they're doing and isn't required to use Alice for a required academic course: Get a real programming language.

To whoever is left: Has anyone ever made a comprehensive list of the bad programming habits and irrelevant workarounds being taught, the bugs, the quirks, the unimplemented features and the multiple ways in which the GUI sucks in Alice 2.0 and 2.2? Cause I'm pretty sick of it! Using this monster would have scared me away from programming if I'd had it back when I first started.

In other news, the drop failed. Again. Re-usability of code in Alice 2.0 and 2.2 is practically nill.

[antmj2317]

To anyone who doesn't know what they're doing and isn't required to use Alice for a required academic course: Get a real programming language.

To whoever is left: Has anyone ever made a comprehensive list of the bad programming habits and irrelevant workarounds being taught, the bugs, the quirks, the unimplemented features and the multiple ways in which the GUI sucks in Alice 2.0 and 2.2? Cause I'm pretty sick of it! Using this monster would have scared me away from programming if I'd had it back when I first started.

In other news, the drop failed. Again. Re-usability of code in Alice 2.0 and 2.2 is practically nill.

I read this post and laughed, so let's really explain your rant of incoherent unexplained babble.

#1. Alice is built on Java, which is a 'real' programming language. BTW what's a fake programming language?

#2 Alice is a learning tool. Now while I agree with you in the lack of features, you're rant should really be about Alice 3.0, and not 2.2 which for all learning purposes is a very polished tool and one of the best for it's intentions that I've seen in 10 years of programming.

#3 Workarounds in programming are one of the best ways to learn code. Having things handed to you in a drag and drop environment may be easy, but it's a rudimentary teaching tool, that's it. Learning how to work around the problem not only teaches you to be adaptive, but also teaches you problem solving, which judging by your post doesn't seem to be one of your strongest qualities.

Lastly, if you feel Alice is subpar to your needs, please feel free to make your attempt at either a) joining the development team OR b) making your own, better version in these so called 'real' programming languages that you mention.

-TonyC

[BenMcLean]

I read this post and laughed, so let's really explain your rant of incoherent unexplained babble.

#1. Alice is built on Java, which is a 'real' programming language. BTW what's a fake programming language?Well there are several ways one could define the term "fake programming language", even though you invented the term while I merely said Alice was "not a real programming language." Not real != fake. I would say a real programming language is one that could conceivably be used to write real programs.

#2 Alice is a learning tool.So is QBASIC, the difference being that QBASIC is a much better learning tool than Alice 2.0 and 2.2.

Now while I agree with you in the lack of features, you're rant should really be about Alice 3.0, and not 2.2 which for all learning purposes is a very polished tool and one of the best for it's intentions that I've seen in 10 years of programming.I really hope so. That's why I didn't post this in the 3.0 forum. I'm stuck in a class that uses 2.0 and 2.2, which started with 25 people and now has only 7 left because they've gotten behind on assignments, which I blame on the terrible drag-and-drop interface they're being forced to work with. Learning where commands are hidden in a GUI doesn't help you remember syntax rules when you start with a productive language. It only slows you down in getting your homework done and fails to improve your typing skills, which are as vital as any other skill being taught in introductory programming in my opinion.

#3 Workarounds in programming are one of the best ways to learn code.That would apply if the type of workarounds I was talking about were relevant. If the point was to force students to think creatively by making them implement workarounds, that wouldn't be a problem. Which is why I restricted that statement to irrelevant workarounds only.

Having things handed to you in a drag and drop environment may be easy,No it's not. It's been much, much harder to work within the confines of this drag and drop interface for the students in my class, especially with the terrible "drop failing" clipboard.

but it's a rudimentary teaching tool, that's it. Learning how to work around the problem not only teaches you to be adaptive, but also teaches you problem solving, which judging by your post doesn't seem to be one of your strongest qualities.I've had to help the instructor out several times because of bugs in Alice 2.0 and 2.2. I've just gotten frustrated seeing other people become frustrated with their introduction to programming in ways I know they wouldn't have been if we were still teaching QBASIC as a first language. QuickBasic 4.5's problems are that it's out of date (procedural, not object oriented or multi-threaded) and closed source, but taken in the context of, "We're just trying to help brand new programmers get their feet wet," I think it still compares favorably to forcing people to work with (referring only to Alice 2.0 and 2.2) this terrible GUI'd monstrosity. Oh, hang on a second, I'm being asked if I want to save my Alice world, AGAIN, which I'm not allowed to turn off, which is stupid. It's great to have the reminder feature in there - as long as the user is allowed to turn it off. If I knew Java, I would have made my own build of Alice by now just to implement that one feature of allowing you to turn the reminder off. OK, anyway, there are alot of good basic ideas in Alice, but 2.0 and 2.2 should never have been used in a college level academic environment at all without being themselves implemented correctly. There is far too much, "Do as I say, not as I do" going on here for 2.0 and 2.2 to be a good base for getting students ready for real programming. I don't believe in starting with toys, but in starting with simple challenges. There's a difference.

Lastly, if you feel Alice is subpar to your needs, please feel free to make your attempt at either a) joining the development team OR b) making your own, better version in these so called 'real' programming languages that you mention.I do not mean to diss the Alice 3.0 development team in any way. I just hope they fix this stuff!

I'd love to be able to make machinima films with the Sims 2 characters in a simple minimalistic scripting language, as long as you can implement sound synchronization and a decent encoder that we can get YouTube-ready music videos out of. That would be great and wonderful.

[Jeremytroid]

Why is this even here? For new members it's bad for the first thing people see on the forum is how terrible Alice is(which is YOUR opinion)doesn't exactly give people a good message

[BenMcLean]

Why is this even here? For new members it's bad for the first thing people see on the forum is how terrible Alice is(which is YOUR opinion)doesn't exactly give people a good messageIt's an opinion which I've been backing up with facts though. The first thing new people ought to see in regard to ALICE is, "If you want to learn programming, start by learning an introductory level language with a stable implementation - preferably one that has stood the test of time, such as QBASIC, then move to something more practical such as C++. If you're a Java programmer, please get on board and help us finish this cool project! If you're an educator, please check back in a few months or years when we've gotten this project stable and working!"

I ended up in an ALICE course by accident (I already knew QBASIC and how to write trivial programs in introductory level C++ before I started) but I stayed in because an easy A would help my GPA. I'm getting an A in the course, but I'm probably the only one. Every single other person in the class is way behind and most of them have dropped the class.

The instructor is a wonderful lady whose teaching style was ideally suited to an introductory course of this type. But the other students can't tell the difference between when they've done something wrong and when Alice 2.0 and 2.2's many bugs and badly or un-implemented features are the root of their problem, and so they conclude they just can't do anything right. And I think that's really sad.

Someone who's new to programming needs to be given a stable IDE and toolchain (optionally one specifically developed for introductory level programming) that they can be confident will perform as it should, so that when they screw up, they know they screwed up their code and can be reasonably expected to figure out why. Several times I've had to tell other students, after carefully looking over their program, that they've done everything absolutely right, and their program doesn't work due to a bug in ALICE. There are several good fundamental ideas behind ALICE, but neither the 2.0 or the 2.2 release should have ever been marked "stable" or used as an introduction to programming in an academic environment.

[antmj2317]

I may be wrong, but the 18 students who left your class for whatever reason probably left for a reason that has nothing to do with Alice.

1) Either they don't have the patience to learn something new(but will sit there and play with facebook or their new cell phone)

2) They don't care(which isn't the programs fault)

3) dropped the class(also, not the programs fault)


Alice is not a difficult language, and yes it is lacking features, but it's not nearly as bas as you make it seem.

Now, what is it that is causing so much trouble that I can help you solve/accomplish?

[x2495iiii]

Look Ben, as scintillating as these threads are, this isn't group therapy and we're not here to listen to you complain. If you have a legitimate bug report, submit it (preferably sans sarcasm), if you have a help request, post it, otherwise, keep your unconstructive criticism to yourself.

By the way, you can change the time between save reminders to "Forever" by clicking Edit>Preferences>Seldom Used and then selecting "Forever" from the dropdown menu next to "number of minutes to wait before displaying save reminder." I checked to make sure that it stays that way when you restart Alice and there are no problems with it.

[BenMcLean]

I may be wrong, but the 18 students who left your class for whatever reason probably left for a reason that has nothing to do with Alice.

1) Either they don't have the patience to learn something new(but will sit there and play with facebook or their new cell phone)

2) They don't care(which isn't the programs fault)

3) dropped the class(also, not the programs fault)I of course can't say that they ALL left for stupid reasons like those, but I can say with some certainty that bugs in Alice were a major factor in hampering their opportunity to learn in the course. I'm the only one whose been messing around with Facebook and so forth in class and I'm the only one getting an A.

Alice is not a difficult language,It wouldn't be if the implementation we're expected to use performed correctly and had a sane, plain text syntax.

and yes it is lacking features, but it's not nearly as bas as you make it seem.

Now, what is it that is causing so much trouble that I can help you solve/accomplish?How to copy and paste code containing calls to methods people have written, for starters.



Actually ... programs are only required to work in Alice 2.0 or 2.2 ... is 3.0 backwards compatible if I only use 2.0 / 2.2 gallery objects? If it has a better editor, I could do the final assignments in 3.0 and maybe that would solve some of this

[Lorenesf3]

All of a sudden, soy products cause cancer. They're not safe unless they're super-processed, and even then, they can mess up your hormones. What?? I thought people in other countries had been eating soy products for thousands of years?!?!

[x2495iiii]

That really doesn't have a place here...

Did you misread the title of this thread or was that just a random post?

[BenMcLean]

All of a sudden, soy products cause cancer. They're not safe unless they're super-processed, and even then, they can mess up your hormones. What?? I thought people in other countries had been eating soy products for thousands of years?!?!I think what he's saying is other people have thought Alice was fine in the past and I'm being like the people who show up later saying soy products cause cancer.

At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if "May cause cancer" was one of the bugs in this thing because just about everything else seems to have something broken. In Alice 2.2, I can add objects to a list but can't remove them ... I have to switch to 2.0 in order to remove objects from lists, but I can't execute my world in 2.0 on this windows 7 machine for some unknown reason because it comes up with an error message.

[x2495iiii]

Now that's a consideration you just have to make when mixing the newest products with older software. For example, I prefer using Google Chrome as my browser instead of IE because it's much faster, but my online college classes don't work well with it because it came out after they created their site. Who's fault is that? No one's because this is a situation which can't be avoided without knowing the future.

Tell me, BenMcLean, do you enjoy ANYTHING about Alice? Or do you seriously believe that it's the worst program in the world and are basically just going to keep saying so until Alice 3 comes out?

[KaiChang]

I'm not so good at alice myself, but I'm LEARNING. Part of the experience. If you don't like it, try to. Maybe you'll like it later. Anyways, if you really don't like it, use another program.

Good Luck
Kai

I am getting better.

[BenMcLean]

Now that's a consideration you just have to make when mixing the newest products with older software. For example, I prefer using Google Chrome as my browser instead of IE because it's much faster, but my online college classes don't work well with it because it came out after they created their site. Who's fault is that?MICROSOFT'S! Open web standards existed long before the release of Intenet Explorer 8 and Microsoft deliberately refused to support them and has instead made up their own alternative specs (which they've basically made sure nobody's browser will be able to support except theirs) in a futile attempt to regain market share against other, better featured, more secure more open browsers NOT through better features and innovation but simply through monopoly! This has led to the development of technologies such as Google Chrome Frame and IE Tab that work around Microsoft's stupidity. There is no valid reason any web site shouldn't work whether you're on Chrome, FireFox, Safari or any other modern browser, regardless of whether you're using Windows, Linux, Mac, Google Chrome OS or some other yet-to-be-invented platform. There are perfectly legitimate reasons why many web developers (the Google Wave team as an example) are dropping IE support as a goal in their sites/projects entirely. The only reason sites don't work on Chrome, FireFox or Safari is because of bad design on the part of the site designer, such as only testing with Internet Explorer.

My guess is your college is probably using BlackBoard. I suggest you get on the dev channel of Google Chrome which recently came out with extension support. An IE Tab extension (similar to the FireFox version) has already been developed for Chrome which will allow you to access your course web sites inside Chrome. I am still an avid FireFox user but can see why people like Chrome. Not sure I understand why people like Safari so much but it's standards-compliant so that's not a problem either. But it doesn't make sense for anyone to use or support IE. The only legitimate uses of IE (any version) are updating fresh windows XP installs to service pack 3 and downloading modern browsers such as Chrome, FireFox and/or Safari.

Tell me, BenMcLean, do you enjoy ANYTHING about Alice?I like the ability to make quick little movies with a fairly nice gallery of simple 3D models that are fairly easy to animate with. I would really like to be able to make some Sims 2 machinima sometime when Alice 3 gets finished.

But my beef is with Carnegie Mellon who have sold me a textbook that describes a product that 1. is not stable/working, 2. is missing obvious features so as to make it useless for any practical purpose 3. tries to teach programming in a drag-and-drop GUI interface (a fundamentally bad idea) and 4. teaches bad design principles, both directly and by example.

Or do you seriously believe that it's the worst program in the world and are basically just going to keep saying so until Alice 3 comes out?Nope. Today, I hit "save" on my last Alice 2 project - the final project in this class I'm taking. Now that I'm not required to use Alice for a class anymore, I'm not using it ever again - unless Alice 3 comes out as a seriously usable set of Sims 2 machinima tools which I can easily sync up with audio and export in an open video format. Then I'll be back and saying how great Alice 3 is and probably using it to make movies.

[x2495iiii]

Though I still believe that the existence of complex games and videos made with Alice disprove many of your statements, I sincerely hope you're not disappointed with Alice 3.

[BenMcLean]

Though I still believe that the existence of complex games and videos made with Alice disprove many of your statements, I sincerely hope you're not disappointed with Alice 3.I myself have made a game, here: http://alice.org/community/showthread.php?t=3546

There's no way I could redistribute it, even in theory, as a stand-alone program without building a package myself in Java ... which at that point would not be "Alice" anymore. That's what I meant when I said "Alice" wasn't a real programming langauge or actually useful.

[x2495iiii]

Remember, it's primary purpose is to TEACH, to help beginners to understand and get used to the ideas and concepts of programming, not to produce full-scale, standalone games or movies. Alice is just the first step on the programming staircase, you can't call it useless just because it isn't identical to the others or because it's lower than the others. It serves its purpose, just as they do.

[BenMcLean]

Remember, it's primary purpose is to TEACH, to help beginners to understand and get used to the ideas and concepts of programming,It seems to be teaching, by example, that it's OK to release buggy code. Why not teach using a real programming language such as BASIC?

not to produce full-scale, standalone games or movies.I hope that philosophy changes or expands into new areas in Alice 3, because machinima artists could use a good full-scale Sims 2 animation scripting language.

Alice is just the first step on the programming staircase, you can't call it useless just because it isn't identical to the others or because it's lower than the others. It serves its purpose, just as they do.If it was stable and performed as described in the textbook, you would have a point. But it doesn't, and you don't.

[rockstar442]

You know your wasting your life complaining -and our time- but seriously go outside join a team quit complaining get a date live on the edge
just do stuff to enjoy your life because while you stay here complaining life will continue to move on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad:

[x2495iiii]

Well, I suppose my take on it is that Alice will give you what you give it. When I first started using it, my goal was to write a game. I knew I'd have to WORK for it, that I'd have to learn the nuances of Alice, that I'd have to experiment and try different arrangements, see what tiles could fit in what slots and what each property controls, etc. Now, I've written several games with this "unstable, unusable fake programming language", one of which is very complex and very popular (especially for an Alice game).

What was your initial goal and expectation when you started using Alice? Were you expecting something new, something that you'd have to take the time to learn, or were you expecting something identical to everything else you've used? Did you expect everything to be done for you, or did you expect bugs and workarounds?

It sounds like you wanted a language that somehow made writing professional games and movies easier while not being different in any significant way from other languages. I'll admit, I used to want something similar, but then I realized that the quality of the games you can produce with a language is inversely proportional to the ease of making that game in that language.

In short, to do what you want to in Alice, you have to first want to learn and have the patience to learn. That's why it's a teaching software.

[BenMcLean]

Well, I suppose my take on it is that Alice will give you what you give it.Since we're talking about a high level programming language here, I'm not sure that statement has any real meaning. You could say that about writing assembly perhaps, but higher level languages actually give you quite a bit more than you give them more or less by definition. Otherwise, no one would use them.

When I first started using it, my goal was to write a game. I knew I'd have to WORK for it, that I'd have to learn the nuances of Alice, that I'd have to experiment and try different arrangements, see what tiles could fit in what slots and what each property controls, etc.That's fine - that's what learning programming is all about - except it (real programming) is working with the syntax of a language rather than these ridiculous tiles.

Now, I've written several games with this "unstable, unusable fake programming language",I never called it "fake" - you guys made that up. I said it was, "not a real programming language" in the context being useful. There is a difference.

What was your initial goal and expectation when you started using Alice?I was expecting to get an easy A, and I got an easy A which took about five times the time and effort it should have due to bugs in Alice. What I'm disappointed about is how I think the course has effected other students in the class - especially those that had to drop - and with the oceans of time I've had to waste fiddling with the thing due to bugs in Alice itself rather than in my programs or designs. Not that my designs are always perfect. It makes perfect sense to spend all day trying to figure out why code I wrote isn't performing as specified. It makes no sense at all to constantly find multiple obvious bugs in the implementation I'm forced to use. (A bug or two on occasion is expected. This isn't.)

Were you expecting something new, something that you'd have to take the time to learn, or were you expecting something identical to everything else you've used? Did you expect everything to be done for you, or did you expect bugs and workarounds?When I start using a textbook to learn a programming language, yes, I do expect the implementation of the language I'm required to use to work for solving the problems given in the textbook. Just like when you open a math book, you expect not to be informed that 2 + 2 = 5.

It sounds like you wanted a language that somehow made writing professional games and movies easier while not being different in any significant way from other languages.Oh no. Not at all. I never said anything about professionalism in the end product. I think we're getting confused about the hierachy of issues here, which is why I said a list might be a good idea. Let me start one:

Problems with Alice 2.0 and 2.2 (from highest priority to lowest, assuming our goal is to teach students programming and good design principles)

1. Performance of the language doesn't match descriptions in the textbook. This teaches by example that it's OK to ignore technical standards - not OK.

2. The clipboard is broken. In 2009/2010, no one should be forced to work with an editor in which the clipboard doesn't work.

3. The GUI interface is prone to break down resulting in preventing the user from placing perfectly valid instructions in some places and also tends to create invalid tiles which can cause files to be unsavable and/or to not compile even when their appearance on screen is correct. These types of issues were reduced in some areas in Alice 2.2 but worsened in others. (such as the list/array editor) Introductory level programming students should never, ever have to deal with an issue of this type because programmers who work in established, productive languages haven't had to deal with issues of this type since at least the late 1980s.

4. The GUI'd interface is a fundamentally bad idea, as it fails to teach students how to type and how to remember syntax, both of which are essential in teaching students to be programmers. If we're dealing with grade school kids, this might make sense, but not in a high school or college level course, and the course I took was supposed to be college level.

5. In some situations involving changing the vehicle property in multiple objects at runtime, Alice gets confused about whether motion is occurring in the object editor or at runtime, which can result in motion that occurs at runtime spilling over into motion in the object editor. This particular issue did not confront very many students but is indefensible from a technical perspective because the difference between the process of writing code and the execution of code at runtime is one of the fundamental principles being taught by a programming course. It is an essential distinction for understanding what conventional programming is. (I understand there are some revolutionary languages in existence that break out of this distinction - no matter because most languages don't and Alice certainly isn't intended to. I would be very interested in seeing a program that uses this bug as a feature in order to get a program that can change itself - in fact that would be just about the only thing that would get me to download and install Alice 2 again at this point) Runtime should obviously be fully sandboxed from the object editor. The fact that it isn't makes me wonder whether there might be other security vulnerabilities which could allow someone to distribute malware as an Alice world. I'm not familiar enough with the Java platform to know whether this is possible or not, but in principle, if one part of the program can gain control over another part of the program where it shouldn't, who knows what other parts of the program it can gain control over?

6. Alice's "seconds" do not correspond either to real seconds or to any arbitrary but standard amount of time. They vary according to the processing power of individual machines, which can cause students programs to fail to perform the way they tested them (such as one I wrote) despite being implemented as "correctly" as the limitations of the language makes possible. This makes Alice useless as an animation tool. (Fixing this issue is not essential for teaching programming, as you can just tell students to write programs that don't depend on exact time or synchronization with audio)

7. The results of an Alice program can't be exported in any standardized, open and stand-alone format in a way that matches performance at runtime in Alice itself. This should be easy to fix, as there are a multitude of free software media encoding libraries that could be used. This is very important for using Alice as quick and easy animation software, but not absolutely essential for using Alice as a programming teaching tool.

8. There is no type casting in Alice. Real object oriented languages have type casting and students need to learn about it and how to do it and it is clearly appropriate at the level of programming which Alice is intended for.

5 out of the 8 issues I've brought up are essential and there are better alternatives out there that don't have problems in many of these areas. If I were a teacher, I wouldn't teach Alice unless all of the first 5 were fixed. As myself, I have no further use for the program unless all of the first 7 are fixed. They all ought to be fixed.

There may be other barriers between the current state of Alice and stability and usefulness, but these are just some that I personally have run into this semester.

Nowhere did I say I expect to be able to make professional Pixar quality animations or Playstation quality games in Alice. Hahahaha, the very idea is laughable - even if all of these issues were fixed, there's no way we could deliver that kind of power to novices, even in theory. That's not even a goal here. But I think being able to animate usefully at all ought to be a goal in Alice 3 and would be a major motivator for students.

I'll admit, I used to want something similar, but then I realized that the quality of the games you can produce with a language is inversely proportional to the ease of making that game in that language.I can make much better games using real programming languages with much less effort. (not in 3D, but still better) I bet you could too.

In short, to do what you want to in Alice, you have to first want to learn and have the patience to learn.Oh, having patience to learn is one thing. But are the things being taught correct? In many cases, they aren't. That's what makes Alice 2 a bad choice as a teaching tool and why I think schools should never have started using it, shouldn't be using it now and shouldn't continue to use it. I hope Alice 3 will be better.

[x2495iiii]

I have to say, that's a very compelling and well thought out argument, however, there are a few flaws in it.

1. I took the textbook class twice. I never saw any discrepancies or shortcomings in the textbook other than it's failure to properly address the use of the "ask user for..." functions, which I was able to figure out myself fairly easily.

2. The clipboard isn't broken. I'm not sure why it doesn't work for you, you may consider re-installing Alice, but I've worked with up to 10 functional clipboards before.

3. Though I don't deny that the GUI does glitch up more often than not, it rarely breaks down (as in it ceases to function) and generally those graphical glitches are simply that: graphical glitches which have no effect on the world itself.

4. Most kids already know how to type, due to things like Twitter and AIM. And I disagree, I think the syntax of Java is taught very well in Alice, especially if you go out of your way to emphasize it (change the settings in the Edit>Preferences to be in Java code format,view the complicated version of loops, etc.).

5. I'm really not sure what the issue with #5 was. Could you possibly post an example of what you mean?

6. Though this may be true (it's never been a problem for me, and I've tried just about everything), I disagree that it makes it "useless" as an animation tool. My youtube video is an example of an Alice animation with synchronized sound, and though it was somewhat unorthodox, it wasn't difficult to make.

7. Now THAT is one of the biggest issues I have with Alice. I too wish Alice worlds could be stand-alone projects, but they simply can't. There IS an Alice World Player that was released by Dennis Cosgrove which allows you to play a world outside of Alice, but you need to have Alice installed to do this.

8. Another issue I actually do agree with you on. This, along with a working export to webpage option would make Alice much nicer to use.

I've actually made a few games using Flash and Java before. It's MUCH harder, takes MUCH longer, and produces MUCH less, especially in terms of graphics.

I always thought you were somewhat exaggerating the bugs you found in Alice. Now it seems you may have simply been the victim of a bad installation. (this has happened to me before). Tell me if uninstalling and re-installing Alice removes any of the bugs. If it doesn't I'll see if I can give you my copy of Alice 2.2 (it's slightly older, but apparently more stable than the current update).

[BenMcLean]

Aha, apparently someone HAS made a list, at least of the bugs, if not of the bad design principles being taught. Here it is: http://alice.org/index.php?page=bugs

I have to say, that's a very compelling and well thought out argument, however, there are a few flaws in it.

1. I took the textbook class twice. I never saw any discrepancies or shortcomings in the textbook other than it's failure to properly address the use of the "ask user for..." functions, which I was able to figure out myself fairly easily.The way the textbook describes the random number function isn't how the random number function operates. This is a recognized bug. (see link above) I remember there were other examples of such discrepancies but I've sold the textbook so I can't look them up anymore.

2. The clipboard isn't broken. I'm not sure why it doesn't work for you, you may consider re-installing Alice, but I've worked with up to 10 functional clipboards before.Yes it is, and this is a recognized bug. (see link above)

3. Though I don't deny that the GUI does glitch up more often than not, it rarely breaks down (as in it ceases to function) and generally those graphical glitches are simply that: graphical glitches which have no effect on the world itself.*shrug* I'm just reporting what happened this semester.

4. Most kids already know how to type, due to things like Twitter and AIM. And I disagree, I think the syntax of Java is taught very well in Alice, especially if you go out of your way to emphasize it (change the settings in the Edit>Preferences to be in Java code format,view the complicated version of loops, etc.).We didn't work with java code format, so you might have a point on the syntax issue, but there are alot of kids who need to learn how to type better. They tap with two fingers via hunt-and-peck and use abbreviations in online chats to such an extreme that they really aren't learning how to type. With that said, I myself learned how to type by using IRC and other chat technologies, and I now consider myself nearly an olympic level typist, (I'm sure one of these days I'll see somebody better who'll put me back in my place on that, but still) so I don't discount that as a way of learning to type. But I could have typed commands much faster than I could have found them in the Alice GUI and that would have significantly reduced the amount of time I had to spend on homework this semester.

5. I'm really not sure what the issue with #5 was. Could you possibly post an example of what you mean?OK, this one seemed to happen on-and-off and I'm not quite entirely sure what triggers it, but try the following in Alice 2.2:

Make two objects, A and B.
Under properties, set A vehicle to B.
At runtime, Do Together (set A vehicle to world; set B vehicle to A; move A or B toward or away from the other)

I might have used some Do in order blocks inside that do together ... don't quire remember now.

That will probably reproduce the bug. It might not though because I don't have the program in front of me to test with anymore. What happens is that error messages come up and A or B ends up having been moved in the OBJECT EDITOR rather than at runtime. That shouldn't ever happen.

One of the things an introductory level programming course teaches students is the difference between code and runtime / execution. If our development environment has bugs that get it confused about this difference, how can we expect students to keep it straight?

6. Though this may be true (it's never been a problem for me, and I've tried just about everything), I disagree that it makes it "useless" as an animation tool. My youtube video is an example of an Alice animation with synchronized sound, and though it was somewhat unorthodox, it wasn't difficult to make.Are you using only one computer? I bet that if you tried to run your program on another machine, you'd be out of sync.

7. Now THAT is one of the biggest issues I have with Alice. I too wish Alice worlds could be stand-alone projects, but they simply can't. There IS an Alice World Player that was released by Dennis Cosgrove which allows you to play a world outside of Alice, but you need to have Alice installed to do this.Even if a special Alice player is required for stand-alone interactivity, there ought to be a working encoder for encoding non-interactive videos into open standard video formats. This should be easy to implement given the proliferation of free software encoders.

8. Another issue I actually do agree with you on. This, along with a working export to webpage option would make Alice much nicer to use.The export to webpage option shouldn't even be on the menu in a release unless it works. Having it there is a bad example.

I've actually made a few games using Flash and Java before. It's MUCH harder, takes MUCH longer, and produces MUCH less, especially in terms of graphics.Ah, well flashy graphics aren't the goal in a programming class as far as I'm concerned. Great games can be produced with a bare minimum of graphics using public domain curses. (example (http://cymonsgames.com/asciiportal/))

I always thought you were somewhat exaggerating the bugs you found in Alice. Now it seems you may have simply been the victim of a bad installation. (this has happened to me before). Tell me if uninstalling and re-installing Alice removes any of the bugs. If it doesn't I'll see if I can give you my copy of Alice 2.2 (it's slightly older, but apparently more stable than the current update).I've worked with multiple installations of both Alice 2.0 and 2.2 on Windows XP, Vista AND 7. Some of the installs I performed myself from the version currently on the web site. I didn't test for every bug I mentioned on every OS though, and didn't keep track of which bugs occurred in which environments. The versions of Java could also be relevant and I neglected to check that. So perhaps my bugs list isn't all that useful.

[beachbum111111]

can you make what you say simpler? I don't want to spend half an hour of my life reading what you say...

[beachbum111111]

and if you dont like the drag-and0drop then turn alice into a java-like symplex...

[Akira101]

Well his opinion is his opinion, and Alice isn't the best, and isn't the worst. Thats why their still developing and trouble shooting it. This isn't a big thing for programming, just mainly to introduce highshool students, like me, to learn and introduce me to programming. If your really stick to your opinion, get off here, stop complaining, and use your time with something useful, like learning C++, lua, to cook, learn quantum physics or somthing, cause this wastes our time and yours.

[beachbum111111]

yeah... and he writes very long and complicated things to waste are time...

[Mario620]

yeah... and he writes very long and complicated things to waste are time...

Or maybe you're just not on his level of intellect and cannot comprehend what he says. Also, it's funny how you bumped this almost-a-year-old post to show your ignorance and nonacceptance of others' opinions.

[beachbum111111]

Or maybe you're just not on his level of intellect and cannot comprehend what he says. Also, it's funny how you bumped this almost-a-year-old post to show your ignorance and nonacceptance of others' opinions.

no. he writed that long because he knows that in the end the thing that he said is basically "i make no sense". And he should keep his opinion to himself. even after he said it he still made excuses to annoy people.

[beachbum111111]

Or maybe you're just not on his level of intellect and cannot comprehend what he says. Also, it's funny how you bumped this almost-a-year-old post to show your ignorance and nonacceptance of others' opinions.

yeah and how would you know??? your not even a week old on alice. your probably him anyway and trying to annoy me and all the other people...

[Dameria]

The thread was dead... why did you resurrect it?? -.-

[beachbum111111]

cause now it's a zombie lolz jk

[CoherentCharlie]

To anyone who doesn't know what they're doing and isn't required to use Alice for a required academic course: Get a real programming language.

To whoever is left: Has anyone ever made a comprehensive list of the bad programming habits and irrelevant workarounds being taught, the bugs, the quirks, the unimplemented features and the multiple ways in which the GUI sucks in Alice 2.0 and 2.2? Cause I'm pretty sick of it! Using this monster would have scared me away from programming if I'd had it back when I first started.

In other news, the drop failed. Again. Re-usability of code in Alice 2.0 and 2.2 is practically nill.
I think it burns...

[pure kirk]

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[beachbum111111]

alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks! [http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/2350/alicezp.jpg (http://img11.imageshack.us/i/alicezp.jpg/)

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if you don't like it dont comment and waste out time.

[CoherentCharlie]

z0mG No it doesn't, spammer! BTW Beachbum, don't quote his text because that'll just double up the spam. No offense. Just say @pure kirk

[David B]

alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks!alice sucks! [http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/2350/alicezp.jpg (http://img11.imageshack.us/i/alicezp.jpg/)

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if you don't like it dont comment and waste out time.

I am not sure, but I think that post was supposed to be a joke.

[CoherentCharlie]

._.

[reuben2011]

I think this thread should be locked unless anyone else has something important to say.

[CoherentCharlie]

Agreed. ^