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Originally Posted by antmj2317
I read this post and laughed, so let's really explain your rant of incoherent unexplained babble.
#1. Alice is built on Java, which is a 'real' programming language. BTW what's a fake programming language?
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Well there are several ways one could define the term "fake programming language", even though you invented the term while I merely said Alice was "not a real programming language." Not real != fake. I would say a real programming language is one that could conceivably be used to write real programs.
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Originally Posted by antmj2317
#2 Alice is a learning tool.
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So is QBASIC, the difference being that QBASIC is a much better learning tool than Alice 2.0 and 2.2.
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Originally Posted by antmj2317
Now while I agree with you in the lack of features, you're rant should really be about Alice 3.0, and not 2.2 which for all learning purposes is a very polished tool and one of the best for it's intentions that I've seen in 10 years of programming.
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I really hope so. That's why I didn't post this in the 3.0 forum. I'm stuck in a class that uses 2.0 and 2.2, which started with 25 people and now has only 7 left because they've gotten behind on assignments, which I blame on the terrible drag-and-drop interface they're being forced to work with. Learning where commands are hidden in a GUI doesn't help you remember syntax rules when you start with a productive language. It only slows you down in getting your homework done and fails to improve your typing skills, which are as vital as any other skill being taught in introductory programming in my opinion.
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Originally Posted by antmj2317
#3 Workarounds in programming are one of the best ways to learn code.
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That would apply if the type of workarounds I was talking about were relevant. If the point was to force students to think creatively by making them implement workarounds, that wouldn't be a problem. Which is why I restricted that statement to irrelevant workarounds only.
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Originally Posted by antmj2317
Having things handed to you in a drag and drop environment may be easy,
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No it's not. It's been much, much harder to work within the confines of this drag and drop interface for the students in my class, especially with the terrible "drop failing" clipboard.
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Originally Posted by antmj2317
but it's a rudimentary teaching tool, that's it. Learning how to work around the problem not only teaches you to be adaptive, but also teaches you problem solving, which judging by your post doesn't seem to be one of your strongest qualities.
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I've had to help the instructor out several times because of bugs in Alice 2.0 and 2.2. I've just gotten frustrated seeing other people become frustrated with their introduction to programming in ways I know they wouldn't have been if we were still teaching QBASIC as a first language. QuickBasic 4.5's problems are that it's out of date (procedural, not object oriented or multi-threaded) and closed source, but taken in the context of, "We're just trying to help brand new programmers get their feet wet," I think it still compares favorably to forcing people to work with (referring only to Alice 2.0 and 2.2) this terrible GUI'd monstrosity. Oh, hang on a second, I'm being asked if I want to save my Alice world, AGAIN, which I'm not allowed to turn off, which is stupid. It's great to have the reminder feature in there - as long as the user is allowed to turn it off. If I knew Java, I would have made my own build of Alice by now just to implement that one feature of allowing you to turn the reminder off. OK, anyway, there are alot of good basic ideas in Alice, but 2.0 and 2.2 should never have been used in a college level academic environment at all without being themselves implemented correctly. There is far too much, "Do as I say, not as I do" going on here for 2.0 and 2.2 to be a good base for getting students ready for real programming. I don't believe in starting with toys, but in starting with simple challenges. There's a difference.
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Originally Posted by antmj2317
Lastly, if you feel Alice is subpar to your needs, please feel free to make your attempt at either a) joining the development team OR b) making your own, better version in these so called 'real' programming languages that you mention.
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I do not mean to diss the Alice 3.0 development team in any way. I just hope they fix this stuff!
I'd love to be able to make machinima films with the Sims 2 characters in a simple minimalistic scripting language, as long as you can implement sound synchronization and a decent encoder that we can get YouTube-ready music videos out of. That would be great and wonderful.